Curse

Messner · Jan 22, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

5 Sandstorm warders with eruption and a ZB monk are on 14th consec, the last 4 or so have been with a fighter hench in place of one ele...i'm sure the only thing that will kick them out is the new build when the changes are reverted...

As kyle said back on page 4, these kind of win conditions in halls don't work on this map. You can bodyblock a relic runner with 2 people and a foes in the stairways in halls. And since ele's are back on the scene there's a 90%++++ chance one of the 12 opposing members is packing at least 1 gale, water snare, cripple to give one of the probably 5 players in the match with ward foes enough time to setup a 12 man bodyblock in 5 arcane echo sandstorms while 3 avatar of grenth dervishes hit c followed by 135223412341 on the target until it dies. This is the kind of crap that happens on the relic objective, the result on deathmatches, well, you get the picture. Or maybe you don't.

The altar match with alliance style battles is pretty dull in my eyes too. All it boils down to is who can wipe the most people on both teams and maintain control of the center. It'd be great if we could use builds that had more enchantments in them but when you added the clause "Enchantments don't matter" to the highest damage dealing melee character that conveniently does that damage in an aoe format we shot that idea out the window. Avatar of grenth is counterable but singlehandedly ruined the meta.

And for everyone who's still bitching about the lack of a searing flames nerf, when a skill gets it's effectiveness reduced to roughly 1/2 of what it previously was capable of, that's a pretty significant nerf in my eyes.

If you have no clue what I'm saying, here:
The precast thing is basically because skills never trigger immediately after recharges, the number is arbitrary but in reality probably very close.
New SF:
SF Used burning started, 2s recharge, .25s precast, 1s cast damage realized, 2s recharge, .25s precast, 1s cast burning reapplied

Old SF:
SF Used burning started, 2s recharge, .25s precast, 1s cast damage realized, 2s recharge, .25s precast, 1s cast damage realized, 2s recharge, .25s precast, 1s cast burning reapplied

EDIT: Make a new hoh map, make it bigger, and bring back 8v8 so we can pack the utility required to not only carry out but survive the inherent issues of the varied objectives and make obsidian flame earth damage kthx

Salia Mare · Jan 22, 2007, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Return of Burial Mounds: Nice, really liked that map, but a little to large now for a 1v1, maybe increase range and damage of obelisk for it to be use.

Removal of Scarred Earth: Was a loose time map anyway, good.

Other HA changes

Broken Tower and Courtyard: nice change, can avoid holding builds; but decrease time to 6-8 minutes.
Random Hall match objectives: good idea but, some objective are broken.
Murder Ball:holding team is favored by starting (fair) and map (unfair).
Kill Count:retard especially here.
Hall map size: too small for what we are supposed to play in.

Suggestion

Keep Courtyard with the Kill Count, it'll avoid Common holding builds.
Don't let teams Skip Courtyard (in fact kill all jumps).
Let Broken Tower as it was, holding altar.
Let Hall as it was, holding altar.
Can add one 'AB style' map if you want, but let Hall as holding.

To conclude, if you want avoid too specific builds (like holding) don't offer a too small map with objectives were another specific rules.

Kill Count / Capture Points may be good idea, but let them be on others map, not altar. Then avoid jumps so that we all have to be able to fight under any win objectives.
But let Hall in his old King of the Hill way.

offtopic
Nerf Sandstorm , and wt.. with Divert Hexes ôO.
/end

Divineshadows · Jan 22, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Return of Burial Mounds: Very nice change for inserting another map before broken tower's 3-way

Removal of Scarred Earth: The best change in my opinion. The map is/was a time sink while waiting for 2 defensive teams to decide which would resign first. Once the levers were introduced, opening it was like opening pandora's box as it tended to piss off both teams and they would both end up attacking your team out of spite.

Other HA changes

Broken Tower and Courtyard: I agree with previous poster. Awesome change but reduce time to 6 minutes.
Random Hall match objectives: very nice change
Murder Ball: remove this objective. It is too slanted to the defending team.

The changes to Heroes Ascent overall make the builds you play more about movement, snaring, shutdown, and killing. I definately prefer the killing mechanism of kill count maps over the holding mechanism that made builds in HA far too defensive.

Negotiating the 3-way kill count maps required a strong ability to kill and still promoted builds that had the ability to protect your monks (getting pincered by both teams could easily cause doom) so positioning and ability to move was important. Sure there were still cases where 2 strong offensive teams decided to both attack your team (if only because your team showed a guild tag with a very high rank) and, if both teams were skilled enough, there was nothing you could do to win in those situations. But those types of situations have always existed in 3-way maps. The "kill-stealing" that happened on these maps is what annoyed me the most, but the teams I was on took advantage of this mechanic just as much as our opposition did. There is a lot more strategy to the kill count 3-ways than there was to the altar holding 3-ways. Good job A-net on the HA changes overall, but still some finer points to negotiate in my opinion.

<3 the new Halls chest format btw.

One other change I would like to see come to HA along with these other changes is to make the party size 8. I think this would bring back a lot of players to HA and help keep the number of map skips down which further entices players to play.

Brother Redmund · Jan 22, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

First of all, I haven't had a chance to log in and play yet but these are my initial impressions.

Altar Mechanics: 7 minutes is probably better than 10. Winning by killing instead of tanking, ganking, or interrupting sounds good. I don't really like the idea of no DP... It could be ok... It sounds like a "newb friendly" change so I don't know why anyone would say there were none. AOE sounds overpowered on these maps. I assume that kills are credited for the killing blow, so this sounds a bit unfair to mass degen teams. Maybe Broken Tower should go back to 1v1 now.......

* "Altars" such as broken... "kill steals" by dealing the last 5% of damage on an enemy where the opposing team has dealt the other 95%. A little messy, definitely skews towards aoe and away from degen.

* 8v8 please... allows for more utility to be included in a team build. Mesmers get very little love in 6v6 nowadays, as it seems there is just no room for them.

Growling Octopus · Jan 22, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Burial mounds: It's good, it gives a little more screening before altar maps ... but something about it seems flawed as I've done burial mounds at least a dozen times lately and EVERY time it's taken absolutely forever.

Scarred earth: I wouldn't say it's a bad map, but it is REALLY ANNOYING to constantly skip to it and have to do 2 matches for 1 stupid fame ... removing it is nice, but hell ... just swapping it with unholy temples orderwise might do the trick too (some people may hate me for saying that

)

Broken Tower/ Courtyard: the new thing is more of a cheesefest than anything, but does stop holding teams from winning every damn time ... maybe make it so that one is old style and one is new style?

HoH: murderball is plain stupid ... it just doesnt work, it's more based on luck than anything else .. it seems that whichever runner has the lowest ping wins cus he'll click the relic before anyone else. Other than that ... dunno, I kinda like the old HA but SOMW and other holding fotms get annoying after running into them for the 1000th time.

The Silver Star · Jan 22, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Return of Burial Mounds: Like it, but think it should be "re-desiged for 2 teams not jsut stick a wall in

Removal of Scarred Earth: Good because tis a filter map and there are not enough teams for a filter map because HA is dead.

Other changes:

Well, HoH itself i dont like the changes one little bit and wil lsimplt alt + f4 guild wars if its implemented (Its not a threat and i know nobody cares if i leave its jsut how i feel), the chest however is much better now.

Courtyard and Broken Tower, dont like the changes its a giant scrubest of c-space and nearly completely removes the point of playing Condition/Hex/Pressure and Shutdown which IS a big waste of skills/build options.

Simply this weekend they turned it into a giant scrubfest of c-space, 3,2,1 Spike all mechanical changes dont work its not what Tombs needs what it needs it be what it used to be like eg 8v8 BUT with the removal of scared and one new map (Completely new map) for Murderball/Kill Count.

PS: Making changes to HA will never stop FOTM's, there will always be FOTM's changes only pomote new ones.

Hephaistion · Jan 22, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Burial Mounds: Nice that this map is back.
Scarred Earth: It shouldn't have been removed. More maps let you make longer streaks before getting to Hall of Heroes.
Holding builds: These builds shouldn't be countered by changing the maps but by swift skill balance response like was done to the Paragons. Nature's Renewal and Well of the Profane are holding build slayers and should have a place in your bars.
Kill count: This system is inherently flawed. It solely promotes high damage builds and spikes. It kills any subtle builds such as spirits or degeneration.
Murderball: Running a single relic against two teams is silly. Also getting a relic from the altar is just pure luck. Who can click faster? Forcing people into the narrow corridors of Halls with a zillion sandstorm is just
Capture points: Such type of play should be reversed for alliance battles. How can you reasonably manage 4 altars with 6 people?
Future of Heroes' Ascent: If these changes are implemented alot of people will quit Heroes' Ascent, even more than 6v6 did. Noticed how the number of ID's dropped from 9 to 3 again on Sunday. The great majority doesn't like these changes. I sincerely hope that you realise this and will not proceed with these changes.

George · Jan 22, 2007, 10:55 AM // 10:55

right heres my bullet point on this:
dont try to make GW into BF2 or CS please, although those games are purely pvp based - they are totaly mindless, the core diffence was: stratigic play, and please dont take it away from us ( GW HAers ).
1. so - no to kill count
2. bring altars back
3. look for ways to encourage new people to play HA
4. make NEW maps and NEW stratigical challenges (shootout isnt a stratigical challenge)

Paddypower · Jan 22, 2007, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hephaistion

Future of Heroes' Ascent: If these changes are implemented alot of people will quit Heroes' Ascent, even more than 6v6 did. Noticed how the number of ID's dropped from 9 to 3 again on Sunday. The great majority doesn't like these changes. I sincerely hope that you realise this and will not proceed with these changes.

agreed. Don't mess up again.. i vote 8v8 and keep those maps for courtyard and broken

and holding = hoh, imo

Cass · Jan 22, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Burial Mounds: Welcome back.

Scarred Earth: Not sad to see it go.

Kill Count 3-ways: Too random, promotes all-out damage and leaves nothing for utility. Some tactical utility to run relics, guard ghosty, stop capping and so on was good. Now you run relics with Avatar of Grenth (the one-skill end of prot monks btw), and need not give it another thought. Make more maps 1vs1. You'll need fewer teams to fill the maps as a bonus. I'd be happy with just Courtyard being multi-team, before Halls.

Relic run in Halls: seems silly. Three win conditions is again too random. HA should not be a chest run! All-round skill should be rewarded! Two win conditions could be alright, to prevent a stale holding-build mentality.

Capture points: Keep it to AB. AB can be binned as well for that matter. :P

RETURN TO 8V8. The single most frustrating thing is to play a random rock-paper-scissors game every time you go in. 8 players can carry a more universally playable build so you have a fighting chance against most teams, instead of being doomed from the start because your build doesn't match up to theirs or vice versa.

speed light · Jan 22, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

The cry for 8v8 vs support for 6v6 is like 9-1... Why the resistance to revert back to what was good?I believe alot of people requires Anet to explain this convincingly.

Given that after every updates to HA, what Anet yield is only complains after complains.I really prefer Anet revert HA back to its original state.I would consider the time from release of prop to the time just before the release of Factions to be the best state that HA has ever been.It is true that the same period has a fair share or lame builds.... lack of creativity...etc... But Anet has to understand this: You cant please everybody( even God cant), every gaming system has its own intrinsic flaws.Modifications since that period have proved to fail,further modifications have been messy and messier.Its easier to mend things from that point than from the current state of HA.

On top of that...This particular period has the one virtue that no other period has. This is the only period where HA was capable of retaining population (alot of very good players , infact,look at a old post for the famous people of HA) and make people want to play it more. No other period in the development of HA saw growing population.Any HA player with 15 month or so of experience has to agree with this.

For myself, the true joy of HA is not gaining fame. It is forming a party of good players and beating your opponent's party of 8 good players. Yes, winning the game from someone that u know is real good... is the reason why competitive people play HA at all.Without a sizable population playing HA.. the competitive element cant take off. IMO,the true measure of your fame...is not the emote u see when u type /rank.... it is how well people ( your teammates or your opponent ) think you play your game.

IMO, the original state is your best option. It has hell lots of flaws... but it has the least. Go nerf iway(yes I iwayed alot... but keep it nerfed please), spikes, spirit spam.... and just bring back the playing population.Without good people to play against... HA = grind

Prodigy Of Legend · Jan 22, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Here is my Opinoin of HA.

Burial Mounds:One of my all time favorite maps I just would like to see it get a little bigger so there isn't six choke points

HoH:I really didn't like the random gametypes in HoH because for games like the Kill Count everyone would go for the weakest team. I really think that this map should be changed to how is used to be and have Courtyard with the three different game types.
Who cannot say that they don't like the last 30 seconds of HoH when all three ghostly heroes are trying to capture the alter and at the last second your ghostly captures the alter?

Broken Tower: Just keep it as it was.

Scarred Earth: glad to see it gone.

8v8: Bring it back please!!!!!!

The changes that Anet came up with were a good idea but in the end it is going to make Imbalanced Wars. With these new updates there can be one style of play. Do the most damage possible as fast as possible. There won't be a defensive build because there build will not be able to get kills lightning fast.

(I made this account specifically for this post)

wantaguild · Jan 22, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

i like the new Tombs system, im playing since 20 months stoped pvp ages ago cauz it was boring... only holding builds n stuff... but since this weekend me and my mates were playing tombs like mad cauz it was so much fun ! i hope it gonna stay like this

DreamWind · Jan 22, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Here are my official comments:

-Re-introduced the Burial Mounds map into rotation, with some map alterations to make it more conducive to a 1v1 map. Good work. Probably the best part of the entire update. This map was missed by many. Thank you for blocking off that annoying side area that served no purpose except for runners.

-Removed the Scarred Earth map from rotation. This is interesting. Many people are saying good riddance to this map, but I am wondering what they will be saying weeks from now. Remember, when Burial Mounds was removed there was very little complaints initially, but later on people wondered why it was removed. I think a better idea for this map would have been to make it 1v1. People disliked it because it was 4 teams, not because of the design of the map. I don't really see the point of completely removing it.

-Broken Tower and Courtyard. Every time a team kills an opposing player, that team is awarded one point. Etc... I like the concept, but I don't like it in multiway maps. It leads to kill stealing, ganking, and really an all out luck fest that rewards builds that can get a lot of kills quickly on both teams. If this idea were put into 1v1 I wouldn't have a problem with it.

-Increased the time limit to 10 minutes. Too long. I think sticking with 7 minutes or something around there is a good bet. I think the time limits in all 3 of the multiway maps can be tinkered with though. For example, I think courtyard needs more time than burial because there are more variables involved (priests). HoH time can be altered to reflect its objectives and etc.

-Hall of Heroes. When players enter the Hall of Heroes, the win condition and match objectives are randomly decided from three options. The idea of a random objective for this map isn't bad honestly. I definitely like the idea of having a map with different objectives.

-Kill Count. As I stated before, I don't like it in multiway maps.

-Murder Ball. Relic runs are good in my opinion, but again, not in multiway maps. As people have said, it leads to all out bodyblock fests with lots of lag involved. Also, HoH itself is not a great map for relic runs due to the small spaces that are easy to block off. I saw a lot of games where nobody capped.

-Capture Points. This seems a lot like alliance battles to me. I personally don't like this capping mechanic, but others I know do like it. My problem with this is it seems to give HoH a completely different feel, and I'm not sure I like that.

Final Thoughts: I liked that Anet has been coming up with ideas for new things in HA, but I am not sure many of these are the way to go. Burial coming back was good. Removal of Scarred remains to be seen (although I think it should just be 1v1). Having random objectives for some maps is a good idea. Also messing with the timers on maps is good. Those are the strengths of the HA ideas.

The weaknesses however outweigh the strengths of the potential changes. I have outlined many of the weaknesses above. I think a big concern to me is that ALL of the altar capping was removed. I think the problems of altar capping are overstated. I think having a couple of altar cap maps are good and give HA its feel. The problem is when an altar map is the LAST map! That is what creates holding builds. Having a couple of altar maps along the way mixed in with other types of maps is fine, as long as some skill balances reflect it (such as song of concentration needing a fix).

I think to correct this, another map would have to be ADDED after HoH which leads me to my biggest disappointment of the entire weekend...no new maps. I know that making new maps would take a lot of time and effort, but it is what HA needs. Another big thing it needs is 8v8. I know previously I was a big supporter of 6v6, but I changed my mind. 6v6 was one of those things that was really good at first but seemingly went downhill.

So, while I love that Anet is finally giving HA some attention, I think the next needed steps are this: Bring back 8v8 and all old maps in their old forms (including 1v1 broken tower and etc), and then work from there. The next logical step would be to create new maps, which I think is the best thing that could happen.

Dutchie · Jan 22, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Changes to altar maps:CRAP!
6v6:CRAP!
Removing Scarred Earth: CRAP!

i dont understand why anet keeps removing the fun things and making it more fun for noobs.

axe · Jan 22, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Burial Mounds : Love it

Scarred Earth : Im cool with it, I am indifferent really

Altar Maps : To soon for me to tell, The dust hasnt settled, if you get 3 good teams on that map, I imagine it will be more of a back and forth battle which could be fun, 10 min. is too long though. DO NOT make this 1v1 it will enourage some ridiculously lame spike builds that just run around and spike occasionally, as it is now the 3 way is slightly better if they look into "kill stealing" more and figure out if there is a problem there.

6v6, I like it, I also liked 8v8. The only reason I would say to switch back to 8v8 is to HOPEFULLY get the arena full again, easier to PUG and less skips. A full arena is a fun arena.

Also Sunday night it was back to being pretty much dead as normal so that pretty much sums up how the majority of the players felt about the changes (and it reflects taht most people were not impressed, thats not to say they didnt like, but they didnt like it more than how it was before)

Dutchie · Jan 22, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Instead of doing crappy weekends every week, anet should try to bring back 8v8 for a weekend and see how full HA is again. Like half of my friends-list raged on Guild Wars because they made Ha 6v6. And at start i was like..ok..lets give it a try, but it just isnt as fun. But i didnt think it was even POSSIBLE to make HA even more boring, but somehow they found a way. I would just love a 8v8 weekend, but thats prob. never gonna happen

.

Morgoth the dark · Jan 22, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutchie

Changes to altar maps:CRAP!
6v6:CRAP!
Removing Scarred Earth: CRAP!

i dont understand why anet keeps removing the fun things and making it more fun for noobs.

altar changes are good now.
Old altars were just pure luck (since AI is idiotic and even a pet cna block your ghost = gg.) and just holding builds.

Scarred earth - tipical gank map. and that sucks. yea i always like the waiting there where 2 teams werent fighting and were just waiting for you to com in and be overwhelmed. nice huh?

Diage · Jan 22, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Negotiating the 3-way kill count maps required a strong ability to kill and still promoted builds that had the ability to protect your monks (getting pincered by both teams could easily cause doom) so positioning and ability to move was important. Sure there were still cases where 2 strong offensive teams decided to both attack your team (if only because your team showed a guild tag with a very high rank) and, if both teams were skilled enough, there was nothing you could do to win in those situations. But those types of situations have always existed in 3-way maps. The "kill-stealing" that happened on these maps is what annoyed me the most, but the teams I was on took advantage of this mechanic just as much as our opposition did. There is a lot more strategy to the kill count 3-ways than there was to the altar holding 3-ways. Good job A-net on the HA changes overall, but still some finer points to negotiate in my opinion.

Their mechanism created the overwhelming use of aoe, it is not good, you takeing use of this is like other people takeing use of a holding build.. its not as much as strategy as is haveing the right build for the situation. The 6v6 has made all ha that, haveing the right build for the situation, its no longer about whose strategicly better and better at this game. Its all about who can take the skills to deal with whats going to happen. In Halls you have to consider all things, running the orb on relic runs, getting more kills on kill count, splitting to capture points in point capture, and bein able to kill teams 1 on 1... there is alot needed to fit into a build to accomodate for all of these, and this creates limitations, you almost need to devote entire characters for these, and because of this 6v6 becomes boreing.

I look at this entire situation as a giant maze. It was nice back in the day when hoh was popular, in the tombs days. People would go through a semi-repeatitive maze to get a nice prize at the end and because of this prize people would keep going through this repeative maze. Sometime ago Anet removed the prize at the end and lessened it incredibly, when that happened people lost interest and the first decline began and people couldnt make teams as easily. Well, Anet saw that people couldnt make teams so they thought to themselves, how can we fix this? make smaller teams was their solution.. so all they did was change the maze a lil, move a wall here and there, and it caught some people, until they were again bored with it.. all anet is doing is adjusting the wall from time to time... If they reverted to 8v8 there would in fact be fewer teams and people will get agrevated, believe this or not.. everyone is argueing for these 8v8 teams, but if they come around with no substantial winnings at the end of this maze, anet will just be continueing to alter the maze and the players will erupt with uproar again that hoh is boreing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drekmonger

I would guess no. 8v8 won't draw players.

Try this. Next weekend, 8v8 with double fame. Look at the player population from the event. I'm betting it will be close to the player population for this event.

this is just one example, itll attract people for the weekend, but thats about it, i could pull out COUNTLESS quotes out of this forum that are all doing the same thing, everyone fights for a reward... and unless your gonna hold halls alot, there is nothing in the end for you really... i do like the 1k faction addition, tho its not major, not enough to keep me goin forever...

Heh, theoreticly you could change halls every weekend, then itd never die! could you imagine that? hah, at this rate, thats ALL anet could do to keep people interested in HoH

Ryder Mali · Jan 22, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I like how several of you try to bash Anet for the changes that they're TESTING... And on that note:

1) I like 6v6 and would want it to stay 6v6.
2) I like the kill count type matches. Look at all of the variety of builds it has brought back, especially the spike builds.
3) I do think that there needs to be something a little different done with halls. I mean, if I wanted to AB, I'd go AB. And there's already relic maps leading up to halls. Maybe some OTHER type of gameplay types could be established. Again, I do like the kill count in Halls though, leads away from the rediculous holding builds.
4) I think that since the Halls are now a lot longer match, the fame should be increased for actually winning halls.
5) I like that scarred earth is gone, because that map (to put it plain and simple) was absolutely rediculous.
6) I like another 1v1 match (Burial Mounds) after Underworld.

There's probably more I'd want to say, but I just can't think of it atm. (Stayed up HAing all night... genious.)